On The Way With Chom this week meets “Dr. Nueng Healthy Hero or Dr. Thawatchaphong Sawatkitpairoj This article opens up a new perspective on meat consumption. Is it true that eating meat can help treat depression and bipolar disorder? Answers to all questions about the Animal-Based Diet that health enthusiasts want to know. Overturns old beliefs about eating meat and the risk of cancer. Meat eaters vs. vegetarians: who is smarter?
Today we’re going to talk about the Animal Base Diet. First, I’d like to ask you, what type of diet do you personally follow?
Dr. One: Actually, I emphasize eating meat, but I still eat some plants, especially vegetables and fruits, but in limited quantities.
How many grams of protein do you eat per day, doctor?
Dr. One: Eat 1-1.6 times your body weight. I weigh 70 kg, so I eat about 70 to 110 grams per day because I exercise, I need to build muscle, I need to use more protein.
Let’s talk about Animal Base. What made you become so interested in it?
Dr. Nueng: Personally, I’m not just interested in health, but also in weight loss. So, the debate over animal-based versus plant-based diets has mostly revolved around weight loss. Previously, there were many different weight loss approaches and healthy eating methods. If we were to break them down, there’s a group that’s serious about eating meat, a very wild one, called the Carnivore Diet. This means carnivores. One group eats a lot of meat, but no plants at all. Once they’re healthier, they believe this is the right way to eat, and they stick with it. Keto dieters who eat a lot of fatty foods and lose weight and are healthy believe that keto is good. In the past 5-10 years, there’s been a growing group of plant-based dieters, who are healthier and claim their diets are better. This has led to a debate about which method is better.
So the doctor turned his attention to this matter?
Doctor One: That’s right.
I’d like the doctor to explain the term “Animal Base.” Is it hardcore? Or does it have to be this proportional to be considered Animal Base? How many types are there?
Dr. Nueng: If we were to divide it up in a way that’s easy to understand, there are three main types. They’re divided according to the proportion of carbohydrates that we can accept. Because if we’re talking about Animal Base, the nutrients we’ll get from animals or from real animals, if we only eat animals, we’ll get protein and fat because animals don’t have much carbohydrate. The first one is what I just mentioned, which is the Carnivore Diet. Because Carnivore means carnivore. So if we eat the Carnivore Diet, we’re eating like a tiger. We’ll eat only protein and fat from meat, but we won’t eat any plants at all. So if you ask if we eat vegetables, we won’t. If we eat fruit, we won’t.
What will the intestines be like?
Dr. Nueng: Each person’s intestinal microflora will adapt to what they eat. This is another interesting topic. The ecosystem in their intestines will be completely different, completely extreme. The second type is the ketogenic diet. This line of diets originally came from people trying to treat children with epilepsy by any means possible. They discovered that eating a ketogenic diet can help treat children with epilepsy. To explain, the word keto comes from the word ketone, a substance that is produced by the breakdown of fat in the body and converted to energy. Genic means to create. Therefore, the ketogenic diet is a way of eating that focuses on creating substances called ketones.
So, people who have epilepsy, does that mean they don’t produce ketones?
Dr. Nueng: No, that’s not true. He observed that if someone with epilepsy fasts, they’ll release ketones, which improves their seizure symptoms. However, we can’t fast for a long period of time and have seizures improve. So, he wondered, are there other ways to create ketones? Another way is, if we don’t do Intermittent Fasting (IF), we cut out sugar and starch, and our body switches to fat for energy, creating these ketones. The brain can then use the ketones for energy. He found that epilepsy also improved.
Therefore, the proportion of people who really eat keto is to focus mainly on fat and cut out sugar and starch. But one misunderstanding of people who ate keto in the past is that they saw them eating 3 layers of pork belly. I thought it was definitely eating 3 layers of pork belly. It’s keto, no. Actually, keto is cutting out starch and sugar. But if you want to be truly healthy, we will accept eating carbohydrates in an amount not exceeding about 20 grams per day, not more than 1 ladle of rice. Vegetables are allowed, but they must be vegetables that are not root vegetables, such as corn, taro, sweet potatoes, pumpkin, these will contain starch. Therefore, you will also get fiber. We will call it Healthy Keto. Normally, we eat 2 ladlefuls of rice per meal, 6 ladlefuls per day, but this is for the whole day, not more than 1 ladle.
Is there anything else?
Dr. Nueng: Type 3 is a bit more flexible. It should be easy for Thai people to do. It’s low-carb, high-protein. This means that the first type, which is the carnivore diet, doesn’t eat any at all. Type 2 is still willing to eat some fiber. Type 3, by “low-carb” here, we might eat a bit more carbohydrates, maybe around 20-100 grams per day. And high protein might come mostly from meat, milk, and eggs. But we might not be able to get high protein from grains because grains still contain carbohydrates. If we eat a lot of carbohydrates, it won’t be low-carb, high-protein.
There is a group that believes that eating a lot of meat is a risk factor for cancer. Is this true?
Dr. Nueng: Actually, in addition to the debate about cancer, there’s also the debate about heart disease. Eating a lot of meat causes heart disease, eating a lot of meat causes cancer. Let me explain each one. If eating a lot of meat causes cancer, in the cancer study 10 years ago, they compiled research and classified what foods are definitely carcinogenic. The first group that is definitely carcinogenic is processed foods like sausage, ham, and bacon. These are processed foods that have been processed to make them last longer by adding a substance called nitrate. This can help as a preservative, or it can make the meat redder. So this is the first group.
But the one that’s really being debated right now is number 2, group 2A, which is red meat. If you eat red meat like pork or beef, you have a chance of getting cancer. But what they’ve concluded says is that it must be red meat that has been cooked at high temperatures. So the question is, is meat really what causes cancer? The question is, if I were to ask, “If you drink alcohol and add ice and get cirrhosis, is the ice to blame?” If you drink carbonated drinks with ice and get diabetes, does that mean ice is bad? It might not be true. The meat itself might not be the problem, but the problem might be caused by the high heat you put the meat through.
So we have to eat raw meat?
Dr. Nueng: Raw meat actually has both advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage is that nutrients aren’t washed out. Why? Because it hasn’t been heated. But there are also disadvantages. Raw eggs have been eaten and people may have contracted salmonella, a diarrhea-causing bacteria. But if you eat raw pork and your ears go deaf, or, most alarmingly, raw beef, you’ll find tapeworms. If they spread to the brain, some people will experience seizures. Or some people experience muscle aches and pains, but they don’t know what’s wrong with them. When they get an x-ray, they see parasites all over their muscles. As they say, when we eat grilled food and there’s a black spot caused by the heat, that’s the one that causes cancer.
So what if we cut out the black part?
Dr. Nueng: It’s still edible. But if you ask what’s the best way to eat, since research has been going on like this for a long time, the best thing to do is eat number 1, eat a variety of foods, eat some red meat, eat some white meat. And the first thing that they put in the first group is processed foods. If you can avoid them, it’s better to avoid them because we definitely know that they add chemicals. And the cancer that is really related to this food group isn’t every cancer. But the cancer that they say is most related is colon cancer. So colon cancer is caused by abnormal bowel movements. How can we prevent constipation? Maybe we should eat more fiber? We don’t eat carbs, but we can eat vegetables. That way, we can get less carbs but still have fiber. This will allow our intestines to excrete well and our intestinal microflora to remain strong.
What is the proper way to cook food?
Dr. One: Use low heat and low heat. Frying uses high heat, maybe boiling or steaming. We can accept this.
And grilling?
Dr. Nueng: I still eat grilled food, personally. Because real food isn’t just about health; it’s also about happiness. But we just don’t eat it every day. In the past, we started with eating vegetables, then started hunting, and then started cooking with fire. But in the present era, it’s not just that. It’s the era of ultra-processed food, which involves a lot of processing. This is probably a bigger problem than the use of fire.
He said that eating a lot of meat increases the risk of heart disease. Why?
Dr. Nueng: What he really feared from eating meat, which plants don’t have, was something called cholesterol. Many doctors are now starting to become more aware of cholesterol. If we look at the original research, it was around 1948-1950, which is about 70-80 years ago. Back then, why were so many people suffering from heart disease? What caused it? Blood tests showed that people with heart disease had high cholesterol. And the walls of their blood vessels also contained cholesterol. So they started to infer whether cholesterol was the cause. In reality, it may or may not be the cause, we don’t know, but there’s a relationship, so we think that way. But in the past 10-20 years, they’ve said that we should control foods that are high in cholesterol.
But why hasn’t the number of people with heart disease decreased at all? Research has begun to examine other factors to see if there are other factors that might be related. This is what is being done in Thailand. They collected data on about 3,000 people and followed them continuously to see if their high cholesterol, HDL, and triglyceride levels were related to heart disease. They found that high total cholesterol and LDL were almost unrelated to cancer and heart disease. However, the factors that were more related were high triglycerides and low HDL. When this happens, people think, “So how can we raise our HDL?” They go together. When our HDL is low, triglycerides tend to be high. Triglycerides are fat that is stored as energy. Simply put, obese people tend to have high triglycerides and low HDL. So, the way to raise our HDL is to lose weight. HDL will naturally increase without us having to take supplements.
Who is Animal Base suitable for?
Dr. Nueng: Actually, it’s suitable for everyone, except for those with certain underlying medical conditions that don’t make an animal-based diet suitable for them. For example, those with kidney disease should clarify that some people often misunderstand that eating a lot of protein will lead to kidney disease. In fact, eating a lot of protein won’t cause kidney disease if consumed in the right amount. However, those with kidney disease must limit their protein intake because the kidneys perform many functions, one of which is waste removal and regulating the body’s acid-base balance. They found that eating a mostly meat-based diet tends to make cells more acidic. Therefore, those with kidney disease are unable to control their body’s acidity balance. Therefore, acid remains in the body, affecting their health. However, if we are normal people without underlying medical conditions, eating meat makes our cells more acidic. Can the body handle it? It can. Therefore, the average person who eats meat won’t have any problems. However, those with kidney disease may need to shift to a more plant-based diet.
Does plant protein help repair or build muscle mass as well as animal protein?
Dr. Nueng: We need to know first whether they can be substituted. What is the difference? If it’s animal-based protein, we call it complete protein. Complete means complete. Therefore, complete protein means that when it’s broken down into its smallest components, which our body needs, called amino acids, it will have all the essential amino acids. What does “essential” mean? Essential means that our body cannot create them. We must get them from food. If we eat from an animal-based protein, we will get all the essential amino acids. But if we eat from a plant-based protein, it will be incomplete protein, meaning it is a protein that does not have all the essential amino acids. But can it be substituted? Yes, it can be substituted, but it will be a bit more difficult for you to eat. For example, if you want to eat beans, you might not get all the essential amino acids. You have to eat beans and rice. It can be substituted, but you would have to eat several things to get all the essential amino acids.
How should we eat the Animal Base Diet to get the best results?
Dr. Nueng: It depends on the purpose of our Animal-Based diet and our physical needs at that time. For example, if we want to lose weight or treat diabetes, the Animal-Based portion might need to be higher in order to reduce carbohydrates from the Plant-Based portion. However, if we’re currently healthy and feel we’ve achieved a satisfactory figure, our health, and our metabolism is improving, we can go back to eating more carbohydrates. We can switch from an Animal-Based diet to a Plant-Based diet. For example, if we want 100g of protein per day, we might get half of our protein from meat and the other half from tofu. We could get the other half, or we could get a little bit from beans. But we need to know the actual proportion of carbohydrates in the food we’re eating and whether we need carbohydrates at that time.
Honestly, eating vegetables doesn’t mean you’ll be safe from toxins these days?
Dr. Nueng: Yes, if you consume a lot of it, it can have an effect. In fact, it can cause long-term inflammation in the body. It’s inevitable, because we’re not producers, we’re consumers. So the best thing to do is avoid eating the same foods over and over again. People who eat the same foods over and over again are more likely to be exposed to toxins from the same things, which accumulate in large quantities. So, we should alternate between eating this and that, from different sources, and choosing the best we can, like the most organic food I can find.
What is Animal Base’s superfood?
Dr. Nueng: The best food should come from natural foods. It should be food that’s high in nutrients but low in calories, meaning it’s packed with nutrients without giving you a lot of calories. It should also have antioxidant properties, helping to repair inflammation in the body. If you want the easiest way to find it, eggs are inexpensive and are the best protein. And bone broth.
Has there ever been research done on whether children raised on an animal-based diet, vegan diet, or any other type of diet grow up to be equally intelligent?
Dr. Nueng: If it’s a research that directly compares whether Animal Base is better than Plant Base, is it true that Plant Base is better than Animal Base? There isn’t any yet. But there is something that can be compared. There are certain substances that are good for children’s brain development. When milk is advertised, they will say that there are a lot of these substances, so eat it like this. That substance is DHA, which to explain first is Omega 3, which is mostly found in animals, especially fish. If we take a newborn baby who drinks normal breast milk and breast milk that the mother may have added a lot of DHA, and follow them for 2-3 years, we will find that the children who drink breast milk with added DHA have better development. It might be difficult to measure IQ, but if we compare the development of two children, we can say that the development of the child who got DHA from their mother is better. Does this mean that if we eat Animal Base food with a lot of DHA in it, we should be smarter? But this is just an inference. We can’t say for sure because there hasn’t been any actual research comparing Animal Base with Plant Base. But here, we’re talking in terms of Omega 3.
And we also don’t know about genetics?
Dr. One: That’s right. There are both genetics and epigenetics, which is the upbringing. If we were twins raised in different places, even if we have the same genetics for intelligence, our bodies might not be the same.
He said that meat can cure depression and bipolar disorder?
Dr. Nueng: It’s been reported that people who follow the ketogenic diet have the ability to self-medicate. This doesn’t necessarily mean they’re cured, but their symptoms improve. The question is, how can this be done? Sometimes, when we read research or studies, we don’t just believe it; we have to think about it first. This is because they say that mental illnesses, such as depression or bipolar disorder, are linked to chronic brain inflammation, which is chronic inflammation. Therefore, if there’s a substance that can reduce inflammation, it should improve symptoms.
The substance we’re talking about is EPA. We’ve heard that there’s DHA, and EPA is a group of omega-3s. There are three main ones we’re talking about: ALA, EPA, and DHA. We mostly get ALA from plant-based sources, while EPA and DHA come from animal-based sources. However, our bodies convert only a very small amount of ALA into EPA and DHA. So, they say that this means that EPA is reducing inflammation in our brains. These days, we can test for inflammation in our bodies. The EPA they’re testing is what determines how much EPA we have. However, if we eat a lot of animal-based foods and rely solely on animal-based sources without getting any fiber from vegetables, this group increases the chances of inflammation in our bodies, which increases the chances of our bones losing calcium.
The doctor just mentioned inflammation in the body. Can’t you blame it solely on eating meat?
Dr. Neung: No, really. Both animal-based and plant-based diets can actually reduce inflammation. This is because a person who already has a lot of inflammation in their body will cut out sugar when they eat animal-based diets. When sugar is cut out, inflammation is reduced. On the other hand, people who eat plant-based diets that are truly healthy, those types of plant-based diets, they don’t eat sugar either. They don’t eat processed carbohydrates. Therefore, our bodies reduce inflammation by not getting sugar or processed carbohydrates. Therefore, the best thing is that once we reach a point that we’re satisfied with, we should go back to eating plant-based carbohydrates sometimes. But choose carbohydrates that haven’t gone through any processing. At the very least, make sure they have fiber. This will improve our health in the long run.
